Discussion:
[Newbies] Grafoscopio and the Data Week: Critical code+data literacy practices and pocket infrastructures from/for the Global South
Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
2018-02-05 17:45:15 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

Following the idea of talking about educational practices powered by (a
flavor of) Smalltalk. I would like to share two of them, mainly by
sharing some links and small phrases/paragraphs about the.

* Grafoscopio [1] is what I call a "pocket infrastructure" for data
activism, digital citizenship and reproducible research and
publication. It tries to approach critically to the exclusionary
"fashionist" concept of "Big Data", by arguing that other
infrastructures and practices can bootstrap citizenship around data
without being constrain by the size of data or the computational
resources to process it. An example is the Panama Papers as
reproducible research[2] project, that shows how this pocket
infrastructures can be used, even in the case of the biggest data
leak in the history of journalism.
* The Data Week [3](Spanish) is a recurrent Hackathon+Workshop where
people learn how to use, extend and modify Grafoscopio, so they can
tell Data Stories to amplify their voices and community concerns. We
choose problems where data and its visualizations give visibility to
grassroots communities and help to bridge the gap between "user" and
"maker", "coder" and "citizen", among others. We try make and
enactive  critic of the (also) "fashionist" hackathon, going beyond
the "pitch", or the meeting of "sleep deprived strangers" to create
a "tech innovative solution" in a weekend to complex social
problems. Next Data Week will overlap with the Open Data Day, and we
are going to address the political discourse on Twitter, as a way to
improve awareness on upcoming presidential elections in Colombia,
but we think that this (pocket infrastructures) approach could be
used as a way to use critical code+data digital literacy practices
to enable informed citizenship discourse and voting in the times of
social networks noise and post-truth.
* Recently we have expanded our actions and infrastructures to the
publishing field by going beyond "open access" (as promoted in
practice by the Creative Commons movement) to "reproducible
publishing". One example of that is the "Data Driven Journalism
Handbook"[4] (Spanish). More are planed, using "remix-traslation" to
bootstrap a more fluent South -> North dialog, because most of the
ideas of Non-English and Non-Writing cultures are kept outside of
the public discourse. By non-writing I mean cultures with strong and
rich oral traditions, but low writing/publishing practices, let
alone non-coding citizens in the Global South.

Grafoscopio and the Data Week are developed as part of my PhD research,
where I ask about "how we can change the digital tools that change us?"
(or the reciprocal modification between digital artifacts and
communities of practice), in the context of a Hackerspace in the Global
South (Bogotá, Colombia). Such research is informed by participatory
action research, ethnography and design research traditions, and is
trying to approach "wicked problems" to build a path in the present with
possible and desirable futures. I'm now finishing to write the
dissertation, so I'm tight on time, but I would be glad to keep this
conversations (or others) going.

Links:

[1] http://mutabit.com/grafoscopio/index.en.html
[2] http://mutabit.com/offray/blog/en/entry/panama-papers-1
[3] http://mutabit.com/dataweek/
[4] http://mutabit.com/repos.fossil/mapeda/

Cheers,

Offray
Ron Teitelbaum
2018-02-05 18:19:37 UTC
Permalink
Hi Offray,

Looks like a wonderful project and an extremely important goal considering
the state of the world today. I hope to hear more about your
dissertation. I agree with the concept that having tools that allow for
data collection and visualization to be used in a collaborative way would
be an excellent way to build and create communities around activism. I
like the ideas around hacktivism allowing users with the technical
knowledge to share their experience with researchers or even just a
community that is crowdsourcing research to create powerful communication
tools that have the potential to change the world.

All the best,

Ron Teitelbaum

On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 12:45 PM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas <
Post by Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
Hi,
Following the idea of talking about educational practices powered by (a
flavor of) Smalltalk. I would like to share two of them, mainly by sharing
some links and small phrases/paragraphs about the.
- Grafoscopio [1] is what I call a "pocket infrastructure" for data
activism, digital citizenship and reproducible research and publication. It
tries to approach critically to the exclusionary "fashionist" concept of
"Big Data", by arguing that other infrastructures and practices can
bootstrap citizenship around data without being constrain by the size of
data or the computational resources to process it. An example is the Panama
Papers as reproducible research[2] project, that shows how this pocket
infrastructures can be used, even in the case of the biggest data leak in
the history of journalism.
- The Data Week [3](Spanish) is a recurrent Hackathon+Workshop where
people learn how to use, extend and modify Grafoscopio, so they can tell
Data Stories to amplify their voices and community concerns. We choose
problems where data and its visualizations give visibility to grassroots
communities and help to bridge the gap between "user" and "maker", "coder"
and "citizen", among others. We try make and enactive critic of the (also)
"fashionist" hackathon, going beyond the "pitch", or the meeting of "sleep
deprived strangers" to create a "tech innovative solution" in a weekend to
complex social problems. Next Data Week will overlap with the Open Data
Day, and we are going to address the political discourse on Twitter, as a
way to improve awareness on upcoming presidential elections in Colombia,
but we think that this (pocket infrastructures) approach could be used as a
way to use critical code+data digital literacy practices to enable informed
citizenship discourse and voting in the times of social networks noise and
post-truth.
- Recently we have expanded our actions and infrastructures to the
publishing field by going beyond "open access" (as promoted in practice by
the Creative Commons movement) to "reproducible publishing". One example of
that is the "Data Driven Journalism Handbook"[4] (Spanish). More are
planed, using "remix-traslation" to bootstrap a more fluent South -> North
dialog, because most of the ideas of Non-English and Non-Writing cultures
are kept outside of the public discourse. By non-writing I mean cultures
with strong and rich oral traditions, but low writing/publishing practices,
let alone non-coding citizens in the Global South.
Grafoscopio and the Data Week are developed as part of my PhD research,
where I ask about "how we can change the digital tools that change us?" (or
the reciprocal modification between digital artifacts and communities of
practice), in the context of a Hackerspace in the Global South (Bogotá,
Colombia). Such research is informed by participatory action research,
ethnography and design research traditions, and is trying to approach
"wicked problems" to build a path in the present with possible and
desirable futures. I'm now finishing to write the dissertation, so I'm
tight on time, but I would be glad to keep this conversations (or others)
going.
[1] http://mutabit.com/grafoscopio/index.en.html
[2] http://mutabit.com/offray/blog/en/entry/panama-papers-1
[3] http://mutabit.com/dataweek/
[4] http://mutabit.com/repos.fossil/mapeda/
Cheers,
Offray
_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
David T. Lewis
2018-02-06 01:06:39 UTC
Permalink
This looks like very interesting work, and some very interesting ideas driving
the project.

Dave
Post by Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
Hi,
Following the idea of talking about educational practices powered by (a
flavor of) Smalltalk. I would like to share two of them, mainly by
sharing some links and small phrases/paragraphs about the.
* Grafoscopio [1] is what I call a "pocket infrastructure" for data
activism, digital citizenship and reproducible research and
publication. It tries to approach critically to the exclusionary
"fashionist" concept of "Big Data", by arguing that other
infrastructures and practices can bootstrap citizenship around data
without being constrain by the size of data or the computational
resources to process it. An example is the Panama Papers as
reproducible research[2] project, that shows how this pocket
infrastructures can be used, even in the case of the biggest data
leak in the history of journalism.
* The Data Week [3](Spanish) is a recurrent Hackathon+Workshop where
people learn how to use, extend and modify Grafoscopio, so they can
tell Data Stories to amplify their voices and community concerns. We
choose problems where data and its visualizations give visibility to
grassroots communities and help to bridge the gap between "user" and
"maker", "coder" and "citizen", among others. We try make and
enactive?? critic of the (also) "fashionist" hackathon, going beyond
the "pitch", or the meeting of "sleep deprived strangers" to create
a "tech innovative solution" in a weekend to complex social
problems. Next Data Week will overlap with the Open Data Day, and we
are going to address the political discourse on Twitter, as a way to
improve awareness on upcoming presidential elections in Colombia,
but we think that this (pocket infrastructures) approach could be
used as a way to use critical code+data digital literacy practices
to enable informed citizenship discourse and voting in the times of
social networks noise and post-truth.
* Recently we have expanded our actions and infrastructures to the
publishing field by going beyond "open access" (as promoted in
practice by the Creative Commons movement) to "reproducible
publishing". One example of that is the "Data Driven Journalism
Handbook"[4] (Spanish). More are planed, using "remix-traslation" to
bootstrap a more fluent South -> North dialog, because most of the
ideas of Non-English and Non-Writing cultures are kept outside of
the public discourse. By non-writing I mean cultures with strong and
rich oral traditions, but low writing/publishing practices, let
alone non-coding citizens in the Global South.
Grafoscopio and the Data Week are developed as part of my PhD research,
where I ask about "how we can change the digital tools that change us?"
(or the reciprocal modification between digital artifacts and
communities of practice), in the context of a Hackerspace in the Global
South (Bogot??, Colombia). Such research is informed by participatory
action research, ethnography and design research traditions, and is
trying to approach "wicked problems" to build a path in the present with
possible and desirable futures. I'm now finishing to write the
dissertation, so I'm tight on time, but I would be glad to keep this
conversations (or others) going.
[1] http://mutabit.com/grafoscopio/index.en.html
[2] http://mutabit.com/offray/blog/en/entry/panama-papers-1
[3] http://mutabit.com/dataweek/
[4] http://mutabit.com/repos.fossil/mapeda/
Cheers,
Offray
_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Joseph Alotta
2018-02-06 01:24:13 UTC
Permalink
Offray,

I am sorry but I don’t understand what your project is about. The words you use are very precise words that have a technical meaning that I do not possess.

Can you give us a simple example? I am looking for the junior high school version of your explanation.

Sincerely,

Joseph.
Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
2018-02-06 02:09:55 UTC
Permalink
Hi Joshep,

Thanks for your interest and sorry for the technicalities. Is some kind
of old bad habit from "academy and research" and their ivory towers
built with expert languages. I will try to explain myself and provide
more technical details in links. It doesn't help not being a native
English speaker neither, but I will try my best.

So, lets start with the idea of critical literacy practices. This idea
comes, mostly, from adults literacy. In such context, the teaching
practices developed with children don't work pretty well (or at all). So
the teachers of such practices don't start by teaching the basic of
letters and handwriting and syllables compositions and words, as used
with children education, or problems about adding numbers or planets
names and rotation trajectories. Paulo Freire[1], for example, started
with what he call "problemas generadores" (I don't know the English
translation, but is about problems that create more problems, usually
related with social and emotional issues), like reading the local
newspapers or writing/reading letters from/for the loved ones, working
such problems with poor people in rural Brasil. In such practices he
recognized that there is not such think as a "neutral" education
practice, and that education is about empowerment (or not) of the
oppressed. So, think in something like that, but instead of using
"classical" literacy for the printed world, we use practices related
with data and code for young and mature adults. In such endeavor we
don't start with the classical (and kind of dumb) "Hello world!"
introduction to computing [2], but with social problems and questions:
Do we and our politicians monologue or dialogue in social networks? How
our public money is spend? How much information release the governments
about medicine information[3]? Do you really need to have a lot of "Big
Data" to be a critical participant in the "information society"?

Once we have such questions, we start to get the proper vocabulary
(coding+data) to express our partial ideas using prototypes. For that,
we learn about Smalltalk basis, but instead of learning to create
"apps", we learn to create visualizations and to tell stories supported
by data. Some visualizations are the classical colored world map, like
the one in the Panama Papers example [4], but made with reproducibility
in mind. The idea is not only to publish a bitmap (png, jpeg) or vector
image (SVG, PDF), but to provide the complete rationale, data and code
behind such stories and visualizations. Other visualizations are custom
made, to express some kind of issue, like the one about medicines
released information[3] or our ways of communication in Twitter[5].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paulo_Freire
[2] http://mutabit.com/offray/blog/en/entry/dumb-hello-world
[3] http://mutabit.com/offray/blog/en/entry/sdv-infomed
[4] http://mutabit.com/offray/blog/en/entry/panama-papers-1
[5] http://mutabit.com/offray/blog/en/entry/ds-twitter-mockup

Despite of not being directly inspired by the theories of Alan Kay or
Paulo Freire, I think that my research put some of their ideas into
dialogue. What would happen if we put the ideas of Dynabook, started
with kids ( and developed in the North) in dialogue with the ideas of
Critical Pedagogy, started with adults (and developed in the South) in
the current age of data? How new ways of civic participation are created
when people learn how to use data, code, visualization and storytelling
to talk about civic concerns?

I hope to be clearer, but let me know if I'm still in the Ivory Tower.

Thanks again,

Offray
Post by Ron Teitelbaum
Offray,
I am sorry but I don’t understand what your project is about. The words you use are very precise words that have a technical meaning that I do not possess.
Can you give us a simple example? I am looking for the junior high school version of your explanation.
Sincerely,
Joseph.
_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
2018-02-06 14:50:47 UTC
Permalink
Sorry for the typo, I meant Joseph.
Post by Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
Hi Joshep,
Ron Teitelbaum
2018-02-06 15:51:20 UTC
Permalink
Offray,

Are you signed up on the squeak-dev mailing list or just beginners? I
think the members of the Squeak-Dev list would enjoy having you there! You
would also get more feedback from that group.

All the best,

Ron

On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 9:50 AM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas <
Post by Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
Sorry for the typo, I meant Joseph.
Post by Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
Hi Joshep,
_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
2018-02-06 16:13:07 UTC
Permalink
Hi Ron,

I'm just in the beginners list (when I subscribed I was a beginner and I
never thought of myself as a developer). I have seen the dev list, but
there is a lot of automatic mail send by commit activity. I'm not sure
if I want such traffic in my mail inbox.

Anyway, having proper feedback places is important and I wonder if some
kind of middle place between developers and beginners is needed. In the
Pharo case, the users list has pretty good activity without details
about commits. Maybe beginners is misleading and we need a users list or
setup something like discourse[1] to improve communication. In the
Manjaro case, it has worked pretty well[2] (but, of course,
infrastructure by itself is not a warranty).

[1] https://www.discourse.org/
[2] http://forum.manjaro.org/

Cheers,

Offray
Post by Ron Teitelbaum
Offray,
Are you signed up on the squeak-dev mailing list or just beginners?  I
think the members of the Squeak-Dev list would enjoy having you
there!  You would also get more feedback from that group.
All the best,
Ron
On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 9:50 AM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
Sorry for the typo, I meant Joseph.
Post by Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
Hi Joshep,
_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
<http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners>
_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Herbert König
2018-02-06 16:32:47 UTC
Permalink
Hi Offray,


Squeak dev always has been the place to be and newbies was just invented
to have a lower hurdle on entry.

For the automatic traffic there's (spam) filters in your mail program.


Please feel free move over, we are not so many in our community that
separate lists are needed.


My 2c.

Cheers,


Herbert
Post by Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
Hi Ron,
I'm just in the beginners list (when I subscribed I was a beginner and
I never thought of myself as a developer). I have seen the dev list,
but there is a lot of automatic mail send by commit activity. I'm not
sure if I want such traffic in my mail inbox.
Anyway, having proper feedback places is important and I wonder if
some kind of middle place between developers and beginners is needed.
In the Pharo case, the users list has pretty good activity without
details about commits. Maybe beginners is misleading and we need a
users list or setup something like discourse[1] to improve
communication. In the Manjaro case, it has worked pretty well[2] (but,
of course, infrastructure by itself is not a warranty).
[1] https://www.discourse.org/
[2] http://forum.manjaro.org/
Cheers,
Offray
Post by Ron Teitelbaum
Offray,
Are you signed up on the squeak-dev mailing list or just beginners? 
I think the members of the Squeak-Dev list would enjoy having you
there!  You would also get more feedback from that group.
All the best,
Ron
On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 9:50 AM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
Sorry for the typo, I meant Joseph.
Post by Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
Hi Joshep,
_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
<http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners>
_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Ron Teitelbaum
2018-02-06 17:53:06 UTC
Permalink
Hi Offray,

I like the idea of forums. Always have. Did the Manjaro community have
trouble with spam? How is it moderated? Email lists seem to be less
vulnerable to spam, although we have received some in the past. Forums
seem to need constant moderation to ensure they are not invaded by spam. I
seem to remember there was a forum way back when. There is a forum
interface to the mailing list already: http://forum.world.
st/Squeak-Beginners-f107673.html. What do you think Discourse would add to
the community over what we have already?

Also, note there are a few other places where we sort of gather. #IRC
#squeak http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/squeak/ don't see much going on there.
Google Plus Group: https://plus.google.com/u/1/communities/
111117917267462353507. Twitter https://twitter.com/SqueakSmalltalk. Planet
Squeak: http://planet.squeak.org/ and https://news.squeak.org/ wow it has
been a long time since I made a post!

I imagine someone probably did a slack channel. Yes I was correct:
http://squeak.org/community/

All the best,

Ron Teitelbaum
Post by Ron Teitelbaum
Hi Offray,
Squeak dev always has been the place to be and newbies was just invented
to have a lower hurdle on entry.
For the automatic traffic there's (spam) filters in your mail program.
Please feel free move over, we are not so many in our community that
separate lists are needed.
My 2c.
Cheers,
Herbert
Hi Ron,
I'm just in the beginners list (when I subscribed I was a beginner and I
never thought of myself as a developer). I have seen the dev list, but
there is a lot of automatic mail send by commit activity. I'm not sure if I
want such traffic in my mail inbox.
Anyway, having proper feedback places is important and I wonder if some
kind of middle place between developers and beginners is needed. In the
Pharo case, the users list has pretty good activity without details about
commits. Maybe beginners is misleading and we need a users list or setup
something like discourse[1] to improve communication. In the Manjaro case,
it has worked pretty well[2] (but, of course, infrastructure by itself is
not a warranty).
[1] https://www.discourse.org/
[2] http://forum.manjaro.org/
Cheers,
Offray
Offray,
Are you signed up on the squeak-dev mailing list or just beginners? I
think the members of the Squeak-Dev list would enjoy having you there! You
would also get more feedback from that group.
All the best,
Ron
On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 9:50 AM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas <
Post by Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
Sorry for the typo, I meant Joseph.
Post by Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
Hi Joshep,
_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
2018-02-06 19:53:14 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Ron and Herbert,

I would rater try to improve a "users lists" that filter commits in a
dev-list. That's one of the interesting points of systems like
discourse: you can create subthreads for particular information and
connect or not to them, create hooks and get only the information you
are interested in.

Seems that we have plenty of channels and I don't know if one more is
going to help with the problem of more fluid communication in the
community that helps with dynamics of governance (like voting). In the
case of Manjaro, I was already in an old forum that was migrated to
discourse, so I don't know a lot about details on managing Spam.
Discourse have spam filters activate and you only get to post a lot of
information with links, if you have interacted with the community
enough, with preset rules. That means that your first post, as a member
could have maybe two links, but you can not start to put a lot of links
in the same post, unless you gain some reputation, which discourages
spammers.

For me the important thing is: can we have a more permanent and fluid
conversation that shows the pulse and vitality of this community? If the
way to do it is to be in the developers list, filter commits with extra
technical info, and having a beginners list with almost no entries, so
we are not addressing properly the transitions and middle places between
users and developers: you have too much info or too little. More
granular information is a place where forums like discourse could help.

Cheers,

Offray
Hi Offray, 
I like the idea of forums. Always have.  Did the Manjaro community
have trouble with spam?  How is it moderated?  Email lists seem to be
less vulnerable to spam, although we have received some in the past. 
Forums seem to need constant moderation to ensure they are not invaded
by spam.  I seem to remember there was a forum way back when. There is
a forum interface to the mailing list
already: http://forum.world.st/Squeak-Beginners-f107673.html
<http://forum.world.st/Squeak-Beginners-f107673.html>.  What do you
think Discourse would add to the community over what we have already?  
Also, note there are a few other places where we sort of gather. #IRC
#squeak http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/squeak/
<http://tunes.org/%7Enef/logs/squeak/> don't see much going on there. 
Google Plus
Group: https://plus.google.com/u/1/communities/111117917267462353507
<https://plus.google.com/u/1/communities/111117917267462353507>.
Twitter https://twitter.com/SqueakSmalltalk. Planet
Squeak: http://planet.squeak.org/ and https://news.squeak.org/ wow it
has been a long time since I made a post!  
I imagine someone probably did a slack channel.  Yes I was
correct: http://squeak.org/community/ 
All the best,
Ron Teitelbaum
Hi Offray,
Squeak dev always has been the place to be and newbies was just
invented to have a lower hurdle on entry.
For the automatic traffic there's (spam) filters in your mail program.
Please feel free move over, we are not so many in our community
that separate lists are needed.
My 2c.
Cheers,
Herbert
Post by Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
Hi Ron,
I'm just in the beginners list (when I subscribed I was a
beginner and I never thought of myself as a developer). I have
seen the dev list, but there is a lot of automatic mail send by
commit activity. I'm not sure if I want such traffic in my mail
inbox.
Anyway, having proper feedback places is important and I wonder
if some kind of middle place between developers and beginners is
needed. In the Pharo case, the users list has pretty good
activity without details about commits. Maybe beginners is
misleading and we need a users list or setup something like
discourse[1] to improve communication. In the Manjaro case, it
has worked pretty well[2] (but, of course, infrastructure by
itself is not a warranty).
[1] https://www.discourse.org/
[2] http://forum.manjaro.org/
Cheers,
Offray
Post by Ron Teitelbaum
Offray,
Are you signed up on the squeak-dev mailing list or just
beginners?  I think the members of the Squeak-Dev list would
enjoy having you there!  You would also get more feedback from
that group.
All the best,
Ron
On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 9:50 AM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
Sorry for the typo, I meant Joseph.
Post by Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
Hi Joshep,
_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
<http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners>
_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
<http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners>
_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
<http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners>
_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
<http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners>
_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Herbert König
2018-02-06 22:22:07 UTC
Permalink
Hi Offray,

to make my point more explicit:

IMO our community is small and fragmentation (of communication channels)
is not helpful. There are some 'special' concerns like VMDev and
Beginners that 'justify' their own channels but most additional Squeak
channels have dried out quickly.

Should have said this in the first place instead of giving tips how to
mitigate what you seemed to dislike on Squeak dev. :-))

Cheers,

Herbert
Post by Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
Thanks Ron and Herbert,
I would rater try to improve a "users lists" that filter commits in a
dev-list. That's one of the interesting points of systems like
discourse: you can create subthreads for particular information and
connect or not to them, create hooks and get only the information you
are interested in.
Seems that we have plenty of channels and I don't know if one more is
going to help with the problem of more fluid communication in the
community that helps with dynamics of governance (like voting). In the
case of Manjaro, I was already in an old forum that was migrated to
discourse, so I don't know a lot about details on managing Spam.
Discourse have spam filters activate and you only get to post a lot of
information with links, if you have interacted with the community
enough, with preset rules. That means that your first post, as a
member could have maybe two links, but you can not start to put a lot
of links in the same post, unless you gain some reputation, which
discourages spammers.
For me the important thing is: can we have a more permanent and fluid
conversation that shows the pulse and vitality of this community? If
the way to do it is to be in the developers list, filter commits with
extra technical info, and having a beginners list with almost no
entries, so we are not addressing properly the transitions and middle
places between users and developers: you have too much info or too
little. More granular information is a place where forums like
discourse could help.
Cheers,
Offray
Post by Ron Teitelbaum
Hi Offray,
I like the idea of forums. Always have.  Did the Manjaro community
have trouble with spam?  How is it moderated?  Email lists seem to be
less vulnerable to spam, although we have received some in the past. 
Forums seem to need constant moderation to ensure they are not
invaded by spam.  I seem to remember there was a forum way back when.
http://forum.world.st/Squeak-Beginners-f107673.html
<http://forum.world.st/Squeak-Beginners-f107673.html>. What do you
think Discourse would add to the community over what we have already?
Also, note there are a few other places where we sort of gather. #IRC
#squeak http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/squeak/
<http://tunes.org/%7Enef/logs/squeak/> don't see much going on
https://plus.google.com/u/1/communities/111117917267462353507
<https://plus.google.com/u/1/communities/111117917267462353507>.
http://planet.squeak.org/ and https://news.squeak.org/ wow it has
been a long time since I made a post!
http://squeak.org/community/
All the best,
Ron Teitelbaum
Hi Offray,
Squeak dev always has been the place to be and newbies was just
invented to have a lower hurdle on entry.
For the automatic traffic there's (spam) filters in your mail program.
Please feel free move over, we are not so many in our community
that separate lists are needed.
My 2c.
Cheers,
Herbert
Post by Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
Hi Ron,
I'm just in the beginners list (when I subscribed I was a
beginner and I never thought of myself as a developer). I have
seen the dev list, but there is a lot of automatic mail send by
commit activity. I'm not sure if I want such traffic in my mail
inbox.
Anyway, having proper feedback places is important and I wonder
if some kind of middle place between developers and beginners is
needed. In the Pharo case, the users list has pretty good
activity without details about commits. Maybe beginners is
misleading and we need a users list or setup something like
discourse[1] to improve communication. In the Manjaro case, it
has worked pretty well[2] (but, of course, infrastructure by
itself is not a warranty).
[1] https://www.discourse.org/
[2] http://forum.manjaro.org/
Cheers,
Offray
Post by Ron Teitelbaum
Offray,
Are you signed up on the squeak-dev mailing list or just
beginners?  I think the members of the Squeak-Dev list would
enjoy having you there!  You would also get more feedback from
that group.
All the best,
Ron
On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 9:50 AM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
Sorry for the typo, I meant Joseph.
Post by Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
Hi Joshep,
_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
<http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners>
_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
<http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners>
_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
<http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners>
_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
<http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners>
_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
2018-02-07 00:19:55 UTC
Permalink
Hi Herbert,

I understand. That confirms my initial assertion, when I said that "I
changed, but community was kind of the same". I'm not a developer, but
some kind of old user coming back (but not a beginner, anymore). I don't
think that there is a need for a new list. Maybe just talking here of
more advanced topics here will show that beginners change, without
becoming devs ;-).

Cheers,

Offray
Post by Ron Teitelbaum
Hi Offray,
IMO our community is small and fragmentation (of communication
channels) is not helpful. There are some 'special' concerns like VMDev
and Beginners that 'justify' their own channels but most additional
Squeak channels have dried out quickly.
Should have said this in the first place instead of giving tips how to
mitigate what you seemed to dislike on Squeak dev. :-))
Cheers,
Herbert 
Post by Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
Thanks Ron and Herbert,
I would rater try to improve a "users lists" that filter commits in a
dev-list. That's one of the interesting points of systems like
discourse: you can create subthreads for particular information and
connect or not to them, create hooks and get only the information you
are interested in.
Seems that we have plenty of channels and I don't know if one more is
going to help with the problem of more fluid communication in the
community that helps with dynamics of governance (like voting). In
the case of Manjaro, I was already in an old forum that was migrated
to discourse, so I don't know a lot about details on managing Spam.
Discourse have spam filters activate and you only get to post a lot
of information with links, if you have interacted with the community
enough, with preset rules. That means that your first post, as a
member could have maybe two links, but you can not start to put a lot
of links in the same post, unless you gain some reputation, which
discourages spammers.
For me the important thing is: can we have a more permanent and fluid
conversation that shows the pulse and vitality of this community? If
the way to do it is to be in the developers list, filter commits with
extra technical info, and having a beginners list with almost no
entries, so we are not addressing properly the transitions and middle
places between users and developers: you have too much info or too
little. More granular information is a place where forums like
discourse could help.
Cheers,
Offray
Hi Offray, 
I like the idea of forums. Always have.  Did the Manjaro community
have trouble with spam?  How is it moderated?  Email lists seem to
be less vulnerable to spam, although we have received some in the
past.  Forums seem to need constant moderation to ensure they are
not invaded by spam.  I seem to remember there was a forum way back
when. There is a forum interface to the mailing list
already: http://forum.world.st/Squeak-Beginners-f107673.html
<http://forum.world.st/Squeak-Beginners-f107673.html>.  What do you
think Discourse would add to the community over what we have already?  
Also, note there are a few other places where we sort of gather.
#IRC #squeak http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/squeak/
<http://tunes.org/%7Enef/logs/squeak/> don't see much going on
there.  Google Plus
Group: https://plus.google.com/u/1/communities/111117917267462353507
<https://plus.google.com/u/1/communities/111117917267462353507>.
Twitter https://twitter.com/SqueakSmalltalk. Planet
Squeak: http://planet.squeak.org/ and https://news.squeak.org/ wow
it has been a long time since I made a post!  
I imagine someone probably did a slack channel.  Yes I was
correct: http://squeak.org/community/ 
All the best,
Ron Teitelbaum
On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 11:32 AM, Herbert König
Hi Offray,
Squeak dev always has been the place to be and newbies was just
invented to have a lower hurdle on entry.
For the automatic traffic there's (spam) filters in your mail program.
Please feel free move over, we are not so many in our community
that separate lists are needed.
My 2c.
Cheers,
Herbert
Post by Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
Hi Ron,
I'm just in the beginners list (when I subscribed I was a
beginner and I never thought of myself as a developer). I have
seen the dev list, but there is a lot of automatic mail send by
commit activity. I'm not sure if I want such traffic in my mail
inbox.
Anyway, having proper feedback places is important and I wonder
if some kind of middle place between developers and beginners
is needed. In the Pharo case, the users list has pretty good
activity without details about commits. Maybe beginners is
misleading and we need a users list or setup something like
discourse[1] to improve communication. In the Manjaro case, it
has worked pretty well[2] (but, of course, infrastructure by
itself is not a warranty).
[1] https://www.discourse.org/
[2] http://forum.manjaro.org/
Cheers,
Offray
Post by Ron Teitelbaum
Offray,
Are you signed up on the squeak-dev mailing list or just
beginners?  I think the members of the Squeak-Dev list would
enjoy having you there!  You would also get more feedback from
that group.
All the best,
Ron
On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 9:50 AM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
Sorry for the typo, I meant Joseph.
Post by Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
Hi Joshep,
_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
<http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners>
_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
<http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners>
_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
<http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners>
_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
<http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners>
_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
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